Tilbudsjagten: 65" LG B3 OLED til 10.990,-

[Rasmus Larsen]

xtknight: You'll find the CeBIT article here: http://www.flatpanels.dk/nyhed.php?suba ... rom=&ucat=&

Part two will be online tomorrow =)

So this all boils down to: an electronics component that failed over time, and thats failure yielded weird patterns. Hmm, sounds a little suspicious doesn't it? After all, what kind of a "defect" would cause this flickery pattern?

It could be the electrical current controller or maybe just some defect when controlling the matrix. But yeah, it sounds kind of weird. I haven't heard similar reports on other monitors.

[sol_jakobsen]

Regarding ViewSonic VP930b:

A while ago I along with other people have speculated that the VP930b is also a 6-bit like the 970P was, due to weird flickery patterns in a select series of colors. Then one user called in and ViewSonic told him it was a known electronics issue with the monitor (and meanwhile sent him a completely different model). But, one VP930b user in my thread at AnandTech said he never noticed the flickering until one day he turned it on and he saw it easily on his wallpaper (he had the same wallpaper throughout).

So this all boils down to: an electronics component that failed over time, and thats failure yielded weird patterns. Hmm, sounds a little suspicious doesn't it? After all, what kind of a "defect" would cause this flickery pattern? (Maybe poorly electromagnetic field-shielded ICs.) Maybe they just meant the P-MVA panel from AUO had serious issues.

I have also read lots about "swarming" on VA panels and I can say I've seen something like that in dark grayish colors. What causes that?

it is a fact that vp930 also uses 6bit +frc http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/DE/Produ ... /VP930.htm
it seems to me like all >=8ms (overdrive) va panels isn’t true 8 bit, but maby the new isp panels fro lg is….

[xtknight]

Wow, that finally confirms my suspections about the VP930b. I wonder why ViewSonic keeps hiding these specs from their American site. I guess I still have yet to see a true 8-bit TFT.

Does 6-bit+FRC apply to all displays using that AUO P-MVA 8 ms panel or can other monitors implement it in true 8-bit mode? That makes me wonder, are there any VA-mode panels that are 8-bit and have reasonable response times? Have all the S-IPS panels been 8-bit that we know of?

It really irks me. My Samsung 710T's FRC is so much better than the ViewSonic VP930b's. The VP930b's reveals horrible artifacts in certain shades. The 970P also has ugly old-fashioned dithering. Do VA panels succumb to such techniques? Does it have something to do with the overdrive technique?

It seems there's conflicting information about 6 bit/8 bit. Is the VP930 sold in Germany 6-bit and the one sold in UK 8-bit? What about the one in the US? http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/UK/Produ ... /VP930.htm

Rasmus Larsen: Cool, I'm off to read it right now. Thanks!

[sol_jakobsen]

Wow, that finally confirms my suspections about the VP930b. I wonder why ViewSonic keeps hiding these specs from their American site. I guess I still have yet to see a true 8-bit TFT.

Does 6-bit+FRC apply to all displays using that AUO P-MVA 8 ms panel or can other monitors implement it in true 8-bit mode? That makes me wonder, are there any VA-mode panels that are 8-bit and have reasonable response times? Have all the S-IPS panels been 8-bit that we know of?

It really irks me. My Samsung 710T's FRC is so much better than the ViewSonic VP930b's. The VP930b's reveals horrible artifacts in certain shades. The 970P also has ugly old-fashioned dithering. Do VA panels succumb to such techniques? Does it have something to do with the overdrive technique?

It seems there's conflicting information about 6 bit/8 bit. Is the VP930 sold in Germany 6-bit and the one sold in UK 8-bit? What about the one in the US? http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/UK/Produ ... /VP930.htm

Rasmus Larsen: Cool, I'm off to read it right now. Thanks!

I think, and only think… that there are no real true 8 bit, va monitors with overdrive…. And yes viewsonice like Samsung write 8 bit some places, but they don’t tell you how they
â€

[Torben Rasmussen]

Personally I have also come to terms with the fact that my 193P+ shows dithering - what else can I do? It is the monitor with the most stylish look on the market IMO and it offers just a tad more on the color/contrat side.

In the new flatpanels.dk layout I have made a more detailed description about VA, PVA, MVA, TN and IPS which describes how the crytals work in each configuration. This can of course be read of the internet elsewhere, but most decent information must be extracted from articles published in scientific papers and not on homepages - we will try to make amend for this.

[xtknight]

I have noticed that the Samsung 970P's panel (LTM190E4?) is not listed as S-PVA but only PVA.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/ ... y_cd=LCD07

I suspect that all PVAs are 6-bit+2x2 dither, while all S-PVAs are true 8-bit. What do you guys think?

[sol_jakobsen]

I have noticed that the Samsung 970P's panel (LTM190E4?) is not listed as S-PVA but only PVA.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/ ... y_cd=LCD07

I suspect that all PVAs are 6-bit+2x2 dither, while all S-PVAs are true 8-bit. What do you guys think?

Samsung uses PVA >=19", and CMO P-MVA/MVA with there overdrive (ore more accurately RTC) monitors, and if you talk about dithering, i acutely have a suspicion that…… (I read this in a forum) that part of the solution in making the else extremely slow Pva and Mva/p-mva panels fast, was through reduction I collar depth…



EDIT:..................

[Rasmus Larsen]

sol_jakobsen: The 970P is not a S-PVA. The same goes for the 193p+.

[sol_jakobsen]

sol_jakobsen: The 970P is not a S-PVA. The same goes for the 193p+.

ups.... yes s-pva is only over "20 i think.... my bad....

[xtknight]

Rasmus, when do you think you'll be able to test that high-contrast LG? Is the LG L203WT one of those high-contrast TN LCDs? Looks like it just uses the LG f-Engine and doesn't actually use a physically different TN panel. The panel is reported to be a CPT (Chunghwa Picture Tubes) TN from what the users can tell in the service menu. However, CPT doesn't have any 20" TN monitor panels ( http://www.cptt.com.tw/english/03_produ ... asp?pid=25 ).

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/fo ... php?t=3585

Another thing: are we fairly sure now that all PVAs are 6-bit and all S-PVAs are 8-bit? What about MVAs and P-MVAs? You probably know more about this aspect than I.

Thanks

[Rasmus Larsen]

xtknight: I have the LG L1770H review ready for publication. The L1770H utilize LGs new DFC (Digital Fine Contrast) and has a specified contrast ratio of 1600:1.

I do, however, need to make some changes on the server today so I hope to have the review online tomorrow.
The review will contain a small video file. Here you see how the DFC method works. =)

I don't really know about the exact panel. You could be right. CPT doesn’t seem to update their site very often - just like LG.Philips.

Another thing: are we fairly sure now that all PVAs are 6-bit and all S-PVAs are 8-bit? What about MVAs and P-MVAs? You probably know more about this aspect than I.

Not completely sure. It seems like the 6-bit was introduced after the integration of Overdrive. We have an official document from Samsung which specifies the method. The link referred to earlier is not exactly right and Samsung use a more complex method than just 2x2 dithering. First of all they expand to 9-bit in order to get the last shades. If you utilize the ordinary dithering and FRC you will end up with 16.2 million colours instead of 16.7 million colours because you can't reproduce the last few shades in the "dark" end of the grey tone system.

[Simon Baker]

Hi to all. Rasmus, thanks for sorting out my sign up for the forum, and xtknight, thanks for referring me to this thread

I was speaking with xt about this yesterday and my suggestion was that perhaps the older PVA / MVA panels were always 8 bit colour depth (256 shades per sub pixel = 16.7 million colours). Since PVA and MVA panels were always used in more of the "premium" products there was no need to cut costs and so no expense was spared in terms of A/D Convertors and the like. However, now that RTC is being used more and more, the manufacturers seem to be favouring PVA and MVA panels much more. Perhaps in an effort to help keep costs down they are using low performance A/D convertors now and so sadly we are only getting 64 shades per sub pixel, but with dithering being used to produce more colours. It seems logical perhaps...


What do you all think about this 6 bit+FRC in practice though? Does it actually make any noticable difference to colour reproduction in real terms? Could you tell the difference in colour quality / accuracy on a PVA using 6bit + dithering and one using a true 8 bit? Rasmus, do you have any you could compare using your Spider2?

Obviously if there are obvsious dithering artefacts and twinkling noticable then this dithering is not a good thing. However, if this is well controlled and hard to spot, does it really make any difference?


Are any manufacturers actually achieving a true 16.7million colours with dithering processes here, or are they simply misquoting the specs like some TN Film panel manufacturers do? It could be that they are only managing 16.2million colours even on some PVA/MVA panels...

[Torben Rasmussen]

The question about noticable difference in a true 8 bit and 6 bit + FRC and dithering is an unquestionable YES IT IS VISIBLE! I have a 191T and a 193P+ and the color reproduction on the 191T is much more accurate than the 193P+. The dithering is very visible on the 193P+ and twinkling is a problem Samsung should address in future monitors.

When they say that they can produce 16.7 million colors, this is true if we look INDSIDE the monitor. The signalprocessing is done at 9 bit, but as the panel is only addressed by the 6 of these 9 bits (3 bit for FRC) true 24 bit is not the result in the end.

[Simon Baker]

that is a shame, the 193P+ (like you said before) is a lovely looking monitor, it is a shame Samsung have cut corners with it's performance. So aside from thw artefacts, there is also noticable colour reproduction differences? In what areas in paticular? vibrancy? colour range? does it effect black depth at all?