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Af xtknight
#3616 First I'd like to say, great site about flat panel monitors. There's tons of information here that can only be found otherwise through extensive searches.

Do you guys plan on translating anything else other than the panel look-up utility into English? Or, do you know a site that does a good job of translating Danish into English?

Also, I hope you review the NEC 20WMGX2 (LCD20WGX2 in Europe). This monitor is getting awesome reviews.

One more thing I'd like to bring to your attention is this: http://geocities.com/icecow88/970p-dithering-en.html

It seems as though not all S-PVAs are true 8-bit!

I also operate an LCD Buyer's Guide here: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview ... erthread=y

Thanks, and once again, great site.
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Af Rasmus Larsen
#3623 Welcome to the forums xtknight.

We appreciate your praise.

Do you guys plan on translating anything else other than the panel look-up utility into English? Or, do you know a site that does a good job of translating Danish into English?


We are soon launching a new version of Flatpanels.dk with some improvements to the English panel search feature but the rest of the site will stay in Danish. I haven't really checked into the possibilities of an English version but I have thought about it several times. Unfortunately it won’t happen in the next few months =(

Also, I hope you review the NEC 20WMGX2 (LCD20WGX2 in Europe). This monitor is getting awesome reviews.

I don't have a review agreement with NEC yet but we are constantly getting new ones. I thought about checking into it but at the moment time is not on my side.

One more thing I'd like to bring to your attention is this: http://geocities.com/icecow88/970p-dithering-en.html

It seems as though not all S-PVAs are true 8-bit!


We have some threads about the issue here on the forums and some practical examples of the dithering.
Keep in mind, however, that we talk about PVA panels - and for the time being only 19 inches PVA's.
Samsung panels: http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/ ... y_cd=LCD07

I also operate an LCD Buyer's Guide here: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&t hreadid=1745344&enterthread=y


I have seen your extensive LCD Buyer's Guide before and I find it very good. I can see all links referring to my site so you can't hide you know ;) Joking apart, you have some very good points and arguments. Some of the monitors can't be bought here in Denmark and the surrounding countries and that's a shame. I would like to see the Westinghouse and Sceptre LCD-TV's without tuners in the stores.

By the way, I see that you're using the panel search and like it, too. You are welcome to on report missing monitors or errors if you find anything. All input is appreciated.
Senest rettet af Rasmus Larsen 5. mar, 14:46, rettet i alt 1 gang.
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3635 Rasmus and I are very excited about the new design that, hopefully, will be launched soon. It will feature brand new elaborate sections on e.g. panel types and how they work, more graphical illustrations and a higher degree of user friendliness.

I agree with Rasmus on the point about translations of all sections. This would be a very extensive work - you already know how much material we have in danish :)

The 970P monitor is furthermore not the only monitor from Samsung that lacks the ability to display true 24 bit colors - my 193P+ also suffer from this annoying defect. Yes I would really call it a defect, and so far Samsung has been ignoring my e-mails concerning the issue.
My investigation is found here:
http://www.flatpanels.dk/flatforum/viewtopic.php?t=553
My 191T does however, not suffer from this, so somewhere in between these two models, someone got a bright idea, and I'm betting my cat that it rimes with MagicSpeed...

PS. I don't own a cat, so don't get your hopes up, for scoring a housetrained specimen by proving me wrong ;)
AfGæst
#3642 At one point in time, Samsung had a chart of TFT LCD monitor panels that actually labeled them as 6-bit/8-bit/true 8-bit. I save a lot of documentation about LCD/TFTs so I managed to grab it. It does make sense the 193+/970P have the same "defects". The panel they use is not listed as true 8-bit.

http://xtknight.atothosting.com/misc/UST01.xls
Af xtknight
#3643 Oops, forgot to login. Guest is me (xtknight). The link is an Excel chart of Samsung's TFT monitor panels they had up a while ago. They no longer list color fidelity.

Good to hear about the website and such.

Oh, the UST01.xls is still on Samsung's site actually, just not linked to.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/ ... y_cd=UST01
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semicon ... /UST01.XLS
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3644 Even if it is not a true 8 bit, there is still no excuse for the dithering patterns observed on the panel. TN panels manage to produce the remaining color through FRC with a decent result, so why shouldn't this PVA panel do so as well? Dithering is an obsolete technology when speaking of color reproduction in flatpanels, and I cincerly hope that Samsung is aware of the discontent among their customers.

Even if the monitor only used 6 bit adressing pr. subpixel, it should still not behave as it does now.
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3663 I have just recieved an answer from Samsung, who confirms that they are using 6 bit adressing in the final step plus FRC and most importantly they utilize spacial dithering in their PVA panels. Either in an 8x8 pixel arrangement or in a 2x4 pixels arrangement.

So there you have it...
Af cobain
#3724 I'm glad that here in Spain it's still possilbe to buy the standard 193P (as far as I know, and unlike the 173P+, the 193P+ it's still not in the market).
I'm planning to buy a 19" TFT monitor and I don't want dithering artefacts, even if it means a high response time.
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3729 I'm not sure the 193P is free of dithering artifacts. I only saw the monitors briefly and did not have time to test it properly. My personal guess was that the dithering is linked to the overdrive technology in oder to speed things up, but this is not a fact.
Af cobain
#3736 I currently use a standard 173P (manufactured in 2004), and I haven't found any dithering patterns (yet). I played some videogames and DVDs but I don't detected nothing.
Do you know any type of image or sequence of images that is specially useful to check if a monitor uses dithering or not?
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3739 Yes the black to white gradient from our "Hjælpeværktøj". You can find it here: http://tft.vanity.dk/monitorTest.exe

Pay attention to vertical lines in the dark region. You should be able to see a slight color variation along a straight vertical line. The BG-color on www.edbpriser.dk is one of the grey colors that my monitor cannot reproduce without visible dithering, so you might want to try that also.
Af cobain
#3741 Thanks Yakken. This site is full of useful info.

The result of my test is somewhat surprising to me. I connect my 173P to the graphics card with both analog and digital cables, and I usually prefer the analog one because the DVI connection don't allow the user to modify the RGB values.

Using the analog connection, the black to white gradient of the Flash monitor test looks very smooth, and the background of the web site is a solid gray.

Then I changed the 173P input to DVI... And suddenly appeared vertical bars on the gradient, and the website's background is not solid anymore, instead there is a very tiny "grid". It looks like a solid gray from some distance, but looking at it closer (like 10 cm or less) I noticed the color is defined by a pattern!
Af sol_jakobsen
#3743 no not all S-PVAs, or p-mva are true 8-bit, from what can see from the information I have looked at, both Samsung and CMO uses 6bit + frc with all there fast va panels…that includes monitors from Samsung Belinea, ViewSonic and others who uses there panels…8/6ms va's
I agree it seams the new lg 6ms isp panel is getting great revives, but, lets see if they also have turned it into a 6 bit for speed improvement
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3744 There are actually two kinds of artifacts on the panel - one that is directly related to the ability to produce smooth gradients and the dithering mentioned earlier. The ability to produce a smooth gradient must not be confused with dithering - I believe this is a result of the digital handling of the DVI signal inside the monitor.

The dithering is something else. There is an example of what to look for in the Paneltyper in this forum.
Af Wildt
#3755
cobain skrev:Thanks Yakken. This site is full of useful info.
Using the analog connection, the black to white gradient of the Flash monitor test looks very smooth, and the background of the web site is a solid gray.

Then I changed the 173P input to DVI... And suddenly appeared vertical bars on the gradient, and the website's background is not solid anymore, instead there is a very tiny "grid". It looks like a solid gray from some distance, but looking at it closer (like 10 cm or less) I noticed the color is defined by a pattern!


I think this might be due to the fact that the analog signal due to it's nature is unable to produce 100% correct colors (distortion+loss of signal strength etc) meaning that an area that's supposed to have completely identical pixels, might actually have small variations. And dithering would be harder to spot when applied to an "unevenly" coloured area.
Senest rettet af Wildt 11. mar, 04:01, rettet i alt 1 gang.
Af cobain
#3760 Wildt, I think you are right.

Analog "imperfections" can hide the dithering artifacts, while DVI, more accurate, shows them.

It's ironic that an "obsolete" analog connection can provide better results (or, at least, an illusion of more quality to the naked eye) than a more modern and precise tecnology like DVI...

Finally I understand because the manual of the standard 173P/193P says that the number of colors that these models are capable of display is only 16,2 millions. Until now I always thought it was an error, but I realized it's true. :-(

I wonder if these dithering patterns are even more visible in the Plus versions of the 173P/193P.
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Af Torben Rasmussen
#3763 I might have access to a 193P at work, but as we use a bunch of 193P+ models as well and since my firm occupy 22000 square meters, it might be difficult to track them down...

If I find one, I will post the result in the section regarding dithering in the panel section.
Af xtknight
#3781 Regarding ViewSonic VP930b:

A while ago I along with other people have speculated that the VP930b is also a 6-bit like the 970P was, due to weird flickery patterns in a select series of colors. Then one user called in and ViewSonic told him it was a known electronics issue with the monitor (and meanwhile sent him a completely different model). But, one VP930b user in my thread at AnandTech said he never noticed the flickering until one day he turned it on and he saw it easily on his wallpaper (he had the same wallpaper throughout).

So this all boils down to: an electronics component that failed over time, and thats failure yielded weird patterns. Hmm, sounds a little suspicious doesn't it? After all, what kind of a "defect" would cause this flickery pattern? (Maybe poorly electromagnetic field-shielded ICs.) Maybe they just meant the P-MVA panel from AUO had serious issues.

I have also read lots about "swarming" on VA panels and I can say I've seen something like that in dark grayish colors. What causes that?
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Af Rasmus Larsen
#3792 I just returned from CeBIT and have tons of pictures. I'll make an article about it soon and shall let you know when it's done.

Furthermore I will receive the 1600:1 LG monitor soon.